Page 1142 - Weakened Feelings

13th Nov 2018, 6:00 AM
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Weakened Feelings
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Author Notes:

Newbiespud 13th Nov 2018, 6:00 AM edit delete
Newbiespud
I have to admit, now that I'm getting the hang of the very very basics of photoshopping Rainbow Dash into screencaps... it's turning into a lot of fun.

67 Comments:

Guest 13th Nov 2018, 6:23 AM edit delete reply
I like how AJ isn't even trying to lie anymore.
aerion111 13th Nov 2018, 7:21 AM edit delete reply
aerion111
Yeah, haven't caught any lies since she started rolling. Not sure if the rolling IS just fake, or what? Maybe she's rolled 'lie' on stuff I wouldn't notice, though?
Pablo360 13th Nov 2018, 9:38 AM edit delete reply
Rereading Discord’s comment earlier... she is 100% not actually lying. She’s just reverse metagaming.
HappyEevee 13th Nov 2018, 5:09 PM edit delete reply
Well no one's rolling Sense Motive on her, so we don't know when she's lying and when she's not.
Lethologica 13th Nov 2018, 8:26 PM edit delete reply
At a guess, AJ's messing with Twi by making her *think* she might be lying. This theory goes down the drain the first time she actually lies after a die roll, though.
GrayGriffin 14th Nov 2018, 2:33 AM edit delete reply
GrayGriffin
I mean, she's not "revealing" the truth if she's agreeing with an obvious fact. At least that's how I'd spin it if I were her.
Robin Bobcat 14th Nov 2018, 2:37 PM edit delete reply
Speaking as someone who used to play a Pooka in Changeling, what AJ is doing is deeper than just lying/not lying. She's still deliberately obfuscating not only the truth, but her opinions on the truth.
The die roll? That's adding a random element. EVEN IF SHE ISN'T ACTUALLY ROLLING AGAINST ANYTHING. It's a layer of complete uncertainty, making her statements completely unreliable. And she's being careful enough when talking that they're not demonstrably true or false on their face.
Which is worse? Someone who lies all the time, or someone who only lies half the time? Or only ten percent of the time?
Guest 14th Nov 2018, 6:33 PM edit delete reply
For the sake of pedantically answering rhetorical questions, I'd say what's worse is determined by their intent. If they're just being confusing and chaotic to get a kick out of it, the intent isn't inherently malicious. But if they're doing something like telling partial truths to make someone believe something that isn't true, then it's worse because the intent is specifically to manipulate.
Digo Dragon 13th Nov 2018, 6:28 AM edit delete reply
Digo Dragon
Dash is on the same page as Twilight here... but yeah, gonna need to cure the affliction first if we wanna get somewhere.

At least their noncommittal is curse-induced. If it were a case of non-investment in the adventure, the situation would be worse. D: When players stop caring about the story, there's really not a game there anymore.
Jannard 13th Nov 2018, 8:28 AM edit delete reply
Well, *Twilight* is the one who might stop caring at any moment, at this point.
Digo Dragon 13th Nov 2018, 2:15 PM edit delete reply
Digo Dragon
It's hard to play the game when no one else wants to join in. Most of the curses given don't prevent the character from helping Twilight out, yet the cursed characters won't do anything.
Departure_Dave 13th Nov 2018, 12:47 PM edit delete reply
InB4 the Dear Princess Celestia letters have all been transcribed onto scrolls of Remove Curse =D
Freelance 14th Nov 2018, 11:19 AM edit delete reply
So. In the original, Spike took over RD's position. Do you think here he's going to take over everybody else's?
Balrighty 13th Nov 2018, 8:22 AM edit delete reply
I just noticed what a happy accident this has turned out to be. Even before this arc, you've written Rainbow Dash to be exactly the party-loyal, pragmatic character that this arc has re-emphasized. So of course, she would not only still be here, but her interactions just wouldn't be well-served by taking show-cursed-RD and re-coloring her. And since RD in the show isn'tin these scenes, you don't have to worry about taking out and filling in a gaping RD-shaped hole in each panel.

I think Bob Ross would be pleased with this happy little bush.
Specter 13th Nov 2018, 12:24 PM edit delete reply
Specter
This kind of reminds me of whenever I'm in a party of veterans and they start arguing about going near a clearly trapped anything.

Trap: *exists*
Veterans: *argues about who goes first*
Me (a spellcaster): "I'll go [do whatever we need to do near trap] so we can get this show on the road.

I have never died while doing this, though I came very close a couple of times.
Archone 13th Nov 2018, 12:46 PM edit delete reply
Holy crap... that is BRILLIANT.

That's how Discord GM created the actual curse to make the Elements ineffective. It's not that the items themselves are useless within the game, it's that THE PLAYERS THEMSELVES DON'T WANT TO USE THEM.

They're all mad. They're mad at Twilight. She's been annoyed... and she's been taking it out on them, and now they're less than enthusiastic about accepting her leadership of the party.

So in order to fix this, Twilight will have to do two things. One: she'll have to ROLEPLAY. And to RESPECT roleplay. Two: she'll have to OOCly work things out. She'll need to apologize for the things she's said, and she'll have to work her friends on their own issues (such as Fluttershy's fear that her true thoughts, in which she so accurately perceives situations and sees the badness in things, makes her a bad person).

This was brilliant. (And unless the story ends with a massive character derailment in which Discord GM suddenly turns into a spoiled child, does a table flip, and then leaves Main GM to wrap things up, then things are going to end with him hamming it up as Discord NPC is turned back to stone, challenging Darth Vader for the best "NOOOOOOOOOO!")
Guest 13th Nov 2018, 1:37 PM edit delete reply
I like how you're blaming Twilight, declaring that she needs to bow down and "respect roleplay" AND announce that if DiscordDM shows himself to act like a spoiled child, it'd be a massive derailment of the arc (when he has been show in the comic that he can and did act like a spoiled child when things didn't go how he wanted).

What Twilight needs to do to solve this, if it is her role to do so, is to stop falling for the BS of someone annoying the players of a recreational activity to turn them against each other in a way that goes beyond their characters.
Archone 13th Nov 2018, 6:45 PM edit delete reply
I like how you guys are jumping to defend Twilight and put all the blame on the evil monster that is now crouched at their table, eating pizza and delighting in their misery.

She has NOT been respecting the roleplaying of the others. And she has been rather insulting and abusive towards her friends. She has been acting thoughtlessly - she's annoyed, so she's lashing out at them. Now she's realizing that they don't want to listen to her anymore. Her offhand comments about Tony Awards and such have not been in character. They have been OC comments, jabs at her friends for enjoying the roleplay instead of focusing on "winning" the game. (Unless someone wants to suggest that the Tony Awards exist in Equestria)

@Mr Wednesday, the old saying "we may have to step outside" refers to the custom that one should not commit violence at a party, but instead take it outside where other people needn't be bothered with it. Are you seriously threatening violence because someone disagrees with your view of two characters from a webcomic?

@GrayGriffin considering that I have taken a lot of flak in comments on previous pages for theorizing that Discord wasn't doing a railroading "I'm going to twist the rules and make it impossible to win" scenario, but actually being a good GM who is relying on roleplaying "curses" rather than stat penalties... well, let me give you some advice. Don't ever use sarcastic dismissals like that. Like... ever. When you're correct, you come across as a jerk. When you're incorrect (as you are in this situation), you come across as an unintelligent jerk.
Mr Wednesday 13th Nov 2018, 7:35 PM edit delete reply
@Archone,

You can take my words however you intend, but if you feel that I’ve earnestly and directly offered you violence then I think you’ve gone a little outside proportion. It pleases me that from a whole reply I composed, you never moved past the first line, and neither acknowledged nor came anywhere near refuting any point I put forward. In fact, your repeated refusal to engage with me suggests only that you are unable to answer.
Archone 14th Nov 2018, 12:27 AM edit delete reply
@Wednesday I take your words at face value. You used an expression traditionally used as a challenge to fight: https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/You+want+to+step+outside%3f

I could talk about whether or not someone should take a moment to reassure Twilight about the roleplaying situation (or whether, as I've noted, their current behavior is OOC because they are OOCly annoyed with Twilight the player, not Twilight the character). But... you made a statement commonly associated with aggressive and violent intentions, and rather than retract or apologize you suggested that it's my fault for assuming that a traditional challenge to violence was a... traditional challenge to violence. So no, I don't have to "engage" with you.

@GrayGriffin Apology accepted, as far as it goes. As for whether or not the Elements work... we have seen (repeatedyl) that NewbieSpud's storylines often diverge wildly from the show. FID's Rarity didn't manipulate and beat the dogs, she was manipulated and beaten by them. FID's gallant prince turned out to be the head of a guild of thieves (something that doesn't even exist in FIM, with the possible exception of Caballeron). So I don't see why the Elements shouldn't work as soon as they act in harmony again.

And in response to the advice: show me where I "moved the goalposts" or misrepresented anyone's arguments.
Mr Wednesday 14th Nov 2018, 12:50 AM edit delete reply
@Archone, Yes, a challenge. A formal invitation to see if your argument could actually stand up to any kind of contest. Seeing as you’ve chosen to deflect and are acting all indignant in an attempt to seize the moral high ground, I think I can say that it can’t.

You don’t listen to what others say. You don’t debate in good faith. You seem convinced that the logical way to convince people that DiscorDM isn’t a villain is to prove that Twilight IS. You don’t respect the other commenters here, so I see no reason why I should respect you.
Archone 14th Nov 2018, 4:01 PM edit delete reply
@Wednesday, "Debate in good faith" does not mean "instantly capitulate to your obvious correctness." Also, I never said Twilight is a villain - I specifically said that her behavior has been rude and unpleasant, that she has been lashing out at the others because she's frustrated. That's a far cry from the claim that Discord GM is being willfully nasty for the sake of nastiness.

As for respect... I saved a caption someone posted a while back that sums it up.

"Sometimes people use "respect" to mean "treating someone like a person" and sometimes they use "respect" to mean "treating someone like an authority." And sometimes people who are used to being treated like an authority say "if you won't respect me I won't respect you" and they mean "if you won't treat me like an authority figure I won't treat you like a person." And they think they're being fair but they aren't, and it's not okay."

Or to put it more bluntly, you seem to believe that because you are (in your own opinion) correct, that means you don't have to be polite to anyone who "disrespects" you by disagreeing. Get used to more "disrespect," in that case.

@GrayGriffin I conceded that Rainbow Dash wasn't participating in the roleplay, but was simply enjoying the show - letting the committed roleplayers roleplay while she watched. I never moved the goalposts in spite of your repeated claims of that, and I stopped replying because we're on page 1142 now, and I don't feel like going back repeatedly to carry on an argument (in which you accuse me of things, I keep refuting the accusations, and you repeat them). Especially since one key point of my position is: let's see what happens. Things are happening. The story continues to unfold. Let's wait and see, instead of assuming that one character is the mustache twirling villain in a webcomic where the only actual villains have been NPCs.
GrayGriffin 14th Nov 2018, 8:38 AM edit delete reply
GrayGriffin
Page 1139? Where you kept claiming that Rainbow Dash was "loving the RP" until we showed you she wasn't, then you immediately leapt to "she's being a fun-ruiner just like Twilight"? Where I literally pointed out you were moving the goalposts and you then decided to stop replying?
GrayGriffin 13th Nov 2018, 8:01 PM edit delete reply
GrayGriffin
Okay. I'll admit I misread your initial comment slightly. I apologize for that. Still, from what we know happens in the episode later on, unless Spud wants to really stretch his editing chops, we know the Elements are also going to fail to work even when worn. So them refusing to wear them right away doesn't actually affect anything.

Oh, and some advice for you: Constantly ignoring and misrepresenting people's arguments and moving the goalpost makes you look like an ignorant jerk.
obscurereader 14th Nov 2018, 12:35 AM edit delete reply
Honestly, @Archone, for the love of god please stop misrepresenting and ignoring the arguments of everyone who tries to comment/debate with you (such as how you managed to completely miss Mr Wednesday's argument right now in favor of misinterpreting his first statement towards you as a threat... when you're separated by the internet and they immediately go on to try and talk to you frankly. I cannot understand how you'd make that mistake without being idiotic). You keep trying to push your narrative about Twilight being the Munchkin Powergamer who needs to, "One: she'll have to ROLEPLAY. And to RESPECT roleplay. Two: she'll have to OOCly work things out. She'll need to apologize for the things she's said, and she'll have to work her friends on their own issues (such as Fluttershy's fear that her true thoughts, in which she so accurately perceives situations and sees the badness in things, makes her a bad person)." and how she, "has NOT been respecting the roleplaying of the others. And she has been rather insulting and abusive towards her friends.". Look, I don't know if you've figured this out yet, but just saying something does not make it true. Repeating it constantly does not make it true - it is just annoying and cult-like in nature, to be frank. It is honestly embarrassing and excruciatingly annoying how you keep failing to have a proper conversation with anyone that responds to to you and how you keep trying to twist their words to make your arguments stronger.

If you do not remember where these exact arguments you're attempting to make (again) have been debated about on in past pages (and how they have been countered with you generally not offering a logical or even coherent argument backed up by evidence in favor of your point of view), allow me to link earlier pages where these debates occurred to refresh your memory.

(For example/reference: http://friendshipisdragons.thecomicseries.com/comics/1140 - debated the whole abusive nonsense on Twilight + her roleplaying in the comments

http://friendshipisdragons.thecomicseries.com/comics/1139 - debated Discord as a challenge + how as a concept Discord cannot be beaten by any means by the players except whatever the DMs say they must do in the comments

I would also, as a side note, like to point out that many of the comments posted by you, Archone, have a consistent pattern of not only the argument misrepresentation pointed out earlier by myself and other commenters, but also have a consistent train of thought that consistently attempts to absolve Discord!DM and demonize some of the players (Twilight especially) or argue the cursed players enjoy the antics. Many of your statements lacked evidence to support them - no pages linked to back up arguments - and the fact that you keep bringing the statements up again without even attempting to lend weight with evidence leads me to believe you're attempting to keep repeating your words until it sticks. This has been going on for literal weeks now. That is not how rational debate works - please cease and desist your poor argumentation. It is not only irritatingly incorrect to blame the others for, "jumping to defend Twilight and put all the blame on the evil monster that is now crouched at their table, eating pizza and delighting in their misery." when that was not what was said by Guest or, well, anyone else in this particular comment chain, it is incredibly hypocritical given your blatant tendency to give the Draco in Leather Pants treatment to Discord/Discord!DM and the Ron the Death Eater treatment to Twilight - not to mention the laughable attempt to imply Celestia was a lying liar who lied and is sneaky/less than truthful about Discord on page 1139).
Mr Wednesday 14th Nov 2018, 12:59 AM edit delete reply
@obscurereader, well said. It’s always nice to see someone else say exactly what you’re thinking, my internet comrade-in-arms!

Though annoying, this debate raises interesting points about the way we play and run games: our goals, our methods, and our intent. It’s been fun being a part of it, just to see people’s perspectives on what makes a good game.
obscurereader 14th Nov 2018, 1:20 AM edit delete reply
Thanks @Mr. Wednesday! Also, good job on you pointing out Archone's tendency to avoid actual debate, too.
GrayGriffin 14th Nov 2018, 2:04 AM edit delete reply
GrayGriffin
@obscurereader @Mr. Wednesday High-five to both of you for providing all that evidence to back things up. Honestly I hate how Archone keeps bringing out the worst in me in these comment sections. I just want to make jokey comments and share fun gaming stories but they just make me so frustrated.
Mr Wednesday 14th Nov 2018, 2:17 AM edit delete reply
@GrayGriffin High-five returned!

If you have stories to tell or jokes to make, I’ll listen!
obscurereader 14th Nov 2018, 3:47 PM edit delete reply
I feel the same as Mr. Wednesday, @GrayGriffin. Getting angry here is understandable, and I'd be happy to read some of your stories or jokes. High-five returned!
Archone 14th Nov 2018, 4:26 PM edit delete reply
@Obscurereader

1: You three have not been "speaking to me frankly." It's mostly been "you disagree with me that this particular character isn't an manipulative and abusive bad guy? You're not just wrong, you're a bad person - also, we're going to keep accusing you of things over and over."

2: My arguments have referenced the pages in question, quoted the characters, and pointed out the logical inconsistencies involved in Main GM calling on Discord GM to come manipulate and abuse his friends. The response has been increasing levels of vitriol aimed at me for disagreeing with regards to Discord GM... as if people hadn't explicitly claimed that Discord GM was an abusive asshole GM (such as the comments for pages 1101 and 1102, where Fluttershy lashed out at Discord GM, and Main GM pointed out that she was attacking him over what someone else had done in her past. "I get the feeling it wasn't really HIM you were trying to "beat" there."). Claiming that I haven't been providing facts, evidence, etc, is essentially accusing me of what you have been doing. Especially since the argument comes down to "Discord GM is a horrible, manipulative, and emotionally abusive jerk who slithered his way in to destroy the game for the lulz and Twilight and friends need to beat him both in and out of the game," versus "Discord GM is an eccentric but skilled GM that Main GM brought in to make the game more fun for everyone, and Twilight is going to realize soon that she's been lashing out at her friends and her own frustration doesn't justify that."

3: I actually had to go back and look at your last comment on page 1139, because I never looked at it, because it's been a WEEK and new pages keep getting uploaded. The "Ron the Death Eater" claim is especially ridiculous, since that means you're claiming that my statement of "this character is being unintentionally offensive to her friends and her character growth will involve recognizing and addressing that issue" to "this protagonist is actually evil incarnate in order to justify headship." That... segues into...
Archone 14th Nov 2018, 4:30 PM edit delete reply
4: The three of you cheering each other so jubilantly reminds me of some years ago when I tried commenting in the forums for a webcomic by one “RH Junior,” whose political leanings can best be summed up by saying "he had the protagonist of his science fiction webcomic laugh condescendingly about "primitive" scientists believing in evolutionary theory."

In 2014, Russia hosted the Olympics and declared "no homos.” Canada uploaded a commercial showing two men doing the movements for bobsledding, without the sled. "A little reminder that the Olympics have always been a little gay." The folks on the forum took offense at that. I pointed out that the commercial was in fact somewhat milder than the average family friendly cartoon.
This led to me having to list examples of hate crimes against homosexuals, which they repeatedly ignored to repeat "you STILL haven't provided any examples," until finally one person declared "now that I've completely destroyed your argument, are you going to threaten to rape my kids like the last gay activist did?" Followed by a few others congratulating him for "speaking truth."

So... if you feel that my disagreeing with you "brings out the worst in you," that's on you. And the fact that your debate methods are so evocatively reminiscent of homophobic Creationists ought to give you pause to reflect.

TLDR: Disagreeing with you regarding fictional characters doesn't make me rude..
Mr Wednesday 14th Nov 2018, 6:37 PM edit delete reply
Disagreeing with us doesn't make you rude. You're correct.

Being rude makes you rude.

If you're really so hurt by our refusal to accept your position that you'll compare us to homophobes and science deniers, then I'm sorry you've got such a glass jaw. I don't really see any more reason to talk to you.
GrayGriffin 14th Nov 2018, 7:14 PM edit delete reply
GrayGriffin
No one claimed that main DM wanted DiscorDM to be abusive and manipulative??? Where the hell are you getting that? If anything we've been discussing how main DM is realizing that he was wrong in calling in DiscorDM and trying his best to get things back on track.
obscurereader 14th Nov 2018, 11:43 PM edit delete reply
@Archone
1. Pretty sure you're exaggerating here, and misdiagnosing the problem (while also being incredibly vague about what the hell it is we're accusing you of - not a great start). No one has claimed you're a bad person (I personally have claimed you're a terrible debater due to your tendency to misrepresent or misunderstand points brought up against your ideas, not that you're a bad person), and no one has been angry about you "disagreeing" with them about "this particular character" (seriously, who are you even referring to? Twilight? Discord? Applejack?).

2. The linked pages with the comment chains we debated in my earliest comment act as proof that the first part of your first sentence wrong (again, many of your comments on the pages I'd linked do not usually reference pages and quote characters, and even if they do they usually have some issue with how the evidence is used or presented, such as failing to take into account later comics that work against your idea - for instance, see the comment chain where you claimed Rainbow Dash was enjoying the roleplay on pg. 1139).

I find it amusing that you're saying that, "Claiming that I haven't been providing facts, evidence, etc, is essentially accusing me of what you have been doing.", since that's such a blatantly false and kind of juvenile statement (it basically just means, "No, you!") given how many damn comments I've made with reference links to other parts of the comic to be used as evidence for both comment chain records and as references for in-comic dialogue.

You're continuing to strawman our arguments by saying, "the argument comes down to "Discord GM is a horrible, manipulative, and emotionally abusive jerk who slithered his way in to destroy the game for the lulz and Twilight and friends need to beat him both in and out of the game," versus "Discord GM is an eccentric but skilled GM that Main GM brought in to make the game more fun for everyone, and Twilight is going to realize soon that she's been lashing out at her friends and her own frustration doesn't justify that."". The first argument presented is blatant misrepresentation of those who dislike Discord (for instance, I've made comments where I stated my belief that Discord actually can't be beaten from an ic standpoint due to how he's designed with such few ic limits, and argued on pg. 1139 that Discord The Character was a textbook villain while saying nothing much on Discord!DM as a person - in case that wasn't obvious on pg. 1139, since I was responding to you saying "nonviolent trickster" and "Celestia in this comic being a bit more sneaky and less than truthful than in the show.", I'd assumed we were both talking about the IC personas and not the OoC GMs.), and the second argument is very heavily skewed against/focused on Twilight and how much of the fault lies with her specifically (conveniently ignoring the antics the rest of the party are getting up to in addition to the DMs poor implementation of their ideas causing such issues in the first place).

3. New pages being uploaded didn't stop you from returning to comment on some earlier pages even after said new pages were released (for instance, see pg. 1139 again with multiple comments from you posting on the 8th of November with myself and others responding after the fact, even though a new page had already been released by that point).

I had used the term Ron the Death Eater as a shorthand for forcing a lot of blame onto a character who, by many people's standards, would not be considered at fault or in the wrong. While I probably should've used a clearer term rather than that particular one, it was still one of the most logical conclusions about your viewpoint on Twilight I could come to, given how many times you've argued that something about Twilight "needs to learn to let go and enjoy the ROLEPLAY aspects of tabletop gaming" (pg. 1136) or "she'll have to OOCly work things out." (pg. 1142), since the implications throughout all of those arguments were that the majority of the blame lay with Twilight and that she needed to make it up to the others (and usually never took into account some of the genuinely jerkassy actions the others were doing to her in the first place).

4. If you want to be taken seriously in a debate, Archone, please refrain from bringing up politics and comparing the people you're debating with to Homophobes and science deniers. It's not only completely off topic to what's being talked about (shame on you for distracting from the topic and insulting the character of the people you're debating with - it doesn't provide anything in your favor in terms of argumentation, and makes you look like a gigantic asshole), it's honestly insulting that you're blatantly attempting to assassinate our characters to try and destroy our arguments (which doesn't even work in rational debate, btw - it's a logical fallacy known as Ad Hominem). Not even going to go into how your homophobia example doesn't even make sense (too much missing context and I refuse to deal with politics if I can), just that you haven't explained how us debating with you (and, if previous pages are any indication, you failing to debate with us properly) is in any way similar to your presented scenarios (here's a hint: they're not related in the slightest, and we've done nothing but try to be as logical and fair in argumentation as possible - trying to claim any similarity is just insulting and incorrect), and that I'm pretty sure what you just wrote in that entire comment counts as Libel.

TL;DR: Disagreeing with us regarding fictional characters doesn't make you rude, true. Constantly misrepresenting others, insulting their character on baseless charges, accusing them of faulty argumentation and flaws that are much more faults of your own than anything others do, and comparing others to homophobes and Creationists without any logic or evidence does make you not only rude, but a gigantic, hypocritical asshole.
Digo Dragon 13th Nov 2018, 2:34 PM edit delete reply
Digo Dragon
I disagree with your fix assessment. Twilight does roleplay and has been acting in response to the other characters appropriately. The issue Twi (and Dash) have, and I side with those two because this point is annoying me, is that the curses given to two-thirds of the party does not in any way specifically prevent them from helping Twi or moving the plot forward. Instead of making any progress, the cursed characters are just constantly showing off their curses to the exclusion of anything else.

And the one-note acting barely qualifies as role-playing. How about Pinkie coming up with a serious grid search plan to locate the book with Twilight? Fluttershy could snark about Twilight's collection of magic books as she helps look. Rarity can use Tom as a stepping stone to reach high shelves. One part of their personalities was cursed, but that shouldn't stop them from actually doing things.
Mr Wednesday 13th Nov 2018, 3:30 PM edit delete reply
I wholeheartedly agree, @Digo.

And I've gotta hand it to you, that way of roleplaying the curses you just suggested is genius. I love it. I hadn't even thought of that--but it would be so interesting! Turning bad stuff to your advantage is practically the player job-description! And DiscorDM would never see it coming! (And I think he's actually a chill enough GM that he'd roll with it, though that's just a guess)

Now, @Archone: we may have to step outside. I don't see where you get the idea that Twi doesn't respect roleplaying, or where you get the idea that she's the only one who has to make amends here.

As this arc has proceeded and I actually got involved in the debate, my ire has started to move away from DiscorDM and toward the players (and even the Main GM, whose past obsession with things following the rails I'd kind of forgotten about).

Here's the thing: when you roleplay, you're allowed to pause. GM's have a responsibility to their players, but good players are also responsible for each other. There's nothing saying someone couldn't take Twilight aside and reassure her. All you'd need to say is: "it's interesting playing the effects of this curse, and I'd like to see where this goes. I'm not messing with YOU, but I'm going to mess with Twilight in-character. Is that ok with you?"

That's not hard to ask, and then Twilight can say either yes or no, depending on how she feels. That's a feature of roleplaying, not a bug.
ThatGuest 13th Nov 2018, 8:40 PM edit delete reply
Personally if I was Pinkie I would have twisted things around on Discord and started acting like an action hero.....from the 80s.

*casually kills a guy then makes it look like he's sleeping* "Please don't disturb my friend. He's dead tired."

"Remember when I said I'd kill you last?" "Yeah! Yeah you did say that!" "I lied." *drops guy off cliff* "Hey what happened to the other guy?" "I had to let him go."
GrayGriffin 13th Nov 2018, 5:56 PM edit delete reply
GrayGriffin
Oh yeah, so brilliant. People already figured this out ages ago. It literally happened in the episode itself. You're not some uber genius for stating it on the page where it's explicitly made clear.
Captain Snark 13th Nov 2018, 8:41 PM edit delete reply
Even if, and that's a pretty big if in my opinion, Twilight's current actions are indeed responsible for the others acting the way they are, that does not make them any less wrong in their actions. If Twilight is indeed the one causing problems as a player then the proper response is to deal with it out of game, preferably privately, even if that means stopping the session itself. The fact that none of the other players nor either GM appear to be making any attempt to do so means they are at least just as much in the wrong as she might be.

And implies far deeper and more serious problems for the group as a whole.
Iron.Hare 14th Nov 2018, 12:24 AM edit delete reply
So early on one player get's unlucky and dies. His character was quite good and for the sake of not having him make another one (IE change the name), the goddess of death returned him to the mortal plane in order to make sure spirits did what they were supposed to.

About 2 months later, one of the other players decides to form a kingdom. In order to get an easy kingdom he strikes a deal with the undead and becomes a vampire. The party is was literally split down the middle. Kingdom building player thought only along the lines of mechanics. The resurrected party Meatshield thought along role play.

When the party separated that night I had one half of the group has undead trying to understand why the other half wouldn't just join them. Discounting the extra circumstances, I don't agree with either side.

The same applies here, whether Twilight has been too jagged with her comments or the other's roleplay to single minded, this falls back to how we guide the players. Personally, I allowed everything to deteriorate. Here, primary GM is allowing their group to fall apart.

For me, after another month and half of trying to keep things moving, I'm finally past the point where each session it's almost exclusively PvP. I don't mind PvP and even at times suggest it has it let's people and characters settle differences in unique ways, but not in this case. In this case, it helps no one and would not bring good will.

All in all, has a GM I empathize with the Main GM because of accidently letting this whole potentially very entertaining story run into the crapper because we didn't reign people in.
Guest 13th Nov 2018, 3:57 PM edit delete reply
Well, Sergeant Pie DOES have a point...
Toric 13th Nov 2018, 5:32 PM edit delete reply
You know, when they were told a few pages back that their curses began to destabilize, and Twilight and Rainbow called them on not taking the opportunity to be cured, Discord said something interesting. He made a remark about how roleplaying is about finding the "unexplored depths of a character." The thing is, however, that they are playing characters who are fundamentally different.

This is NOT who these characters are. Who they are has been deliberately subverted. This by itself is not a great crime against roleplay, but it is counter to Discord's stated rationale. Moreover, one might read this refusal to switch back as a sort of player despair, where they think there is no reason to expect an all-powerful chaos being to NOT affect them. At the player-level, they have moved to the point of deliberately thwarting Twilight rather than simply complying with their compulsions. Having been on the receiving end of group hazings, it is not always uncalled for or unfunny, but things are obviously moving away from where Twilight can consider this treatment to be "in good fun."
Modern-day Medicine Man 13th Nov 2018, 5:52 PM edit delete reply
First, hi everyone. First post here so how are you all. Plesentry aside, I think alot of you are getting too mad at someone. Wither that is discord, mane 6, or other commentors. Like the discordm is bad for pull rp relationship problems,or twilight is not into the roleplay, or the cursed ponies are to focused on the rp to move on with the plot. I feel you guys are missing something here.

The way I see it is that discordm set up a boss fight that is intentionally impossible to physically fight except for magic based on socal links.So boss makes traps that the players willing take the traps/curses that hurt socal links for story/fun reasons. Leader of party doesn't get a direct trap. Leader wants to get rid of traps since she see them as walls and not the storyline. Leader gets annoyed at players for not willingly lose the trap/curses when given a freebie. Trapped players deny freebie so personal growth and story can fill out naturally. Leader doesn't get that and is trying to skip the problem to get to the end. Trying to solve the problem without trying to solve the problem.

Did I miss anything?
GrayGriffin 13th Nov 2018, 5:55 PM edit delete reply
GrayGriffin
What personal growth and story? They're all acting completely counter to their natural personalities, how are they supposed to get "personal growth" out of this? And like Digo has said, all they're doing is making little quips based on their new personalities instead of trying to figure out how to still be helpful with them. If anything, Rarity has actually regressed back to her original greedy personality.
Archone 13th Nov 2018, 6:47 PM edit delete reply
They're not acting counter to their natural personalities... because this isn't them roleplaying their characters. This is OOC annoyance with Twilight for her OOC behavior.
ThatGuest 13th Nov 2018, 8:47 PM edit delete reply
It's not roleplaying, they've just been saying the same exact thing in different ways no mater what Twilight said to them, when they weren't outright ignoring her.

Pinkie: *growly paranoid edgelord line*
Fluttershy: *insult*
AJ: *OPPOSITE DAAAY~*
Rarity: *DIAMOND!*

Yeah Twilight is done trying to roleplay with them because she figured out an hour ago, no matter what she said, those four are just going to vomit out some generic phrase along those lines like they're a freaking see n' say. Pop in any rpg and stand in one spot talking to the same npc for and hour just repeating their dialouge trees and lets see how much fun you're having.
HappyEevee 13th Nov 2018, 9:17 PM edit delete reply
"Pop in any rpg and stand in one spot talking to the same npc for and hour just repeating their dialouge trees and lets see how much fun you're having."

<Shifty eyes> Er, how did you know what I've been doing this week in Pathfinder: Kingmaker? I could listen to some of those voice actors/actresses all day...
Archone 14th Nov 2018, 12:35 AM edit delete reply
If I were in Twilight's shoes, then... I would be working within the context of their roleplay.
@Pinkie: "You're right. Let's. Get. Dangerous!"
@Fluttershy: "You're not a bad person. We've always told you how smart and strong you are. Now's the time to show it."
@AJ: "As soon as we stop Discord, you'll be free to speak as straight and true as ever."
@Rarity: "...You can keep Tom. Consider... "him," your payment for services, just grab your Element."

Instead, her treatment of them has gotten a bit abusive and unpleasant. Which is why they're not listening to her anymore.
obscurereader 14th Nov 2018, 1:40 AM edit delete reply
@HappyEevee - fair enough on wanting to listen to dialogue. Can't speak for everyone on that. I will posit, though, that in this particular case the dialogue sprouting from the curses is unhealthy, as it is driving wedges between the group IC (and arguably OoC, as @Archone suggested in his first comment in this chain - however, it's difficult to tell, and the dialogue on this particular page from the players seems to be IC given the Gray speech bubble from Pinkie and the rolling from Applejack. Don't think their attitude can be said to be OoC annoyance just from that, but eh, who knows?). The lines between IC and OoC aren't being defined well imo, and that is a mistake the group as a whole (especially the dms) should work on fixing (as in, session stops, everyone clears the air. Course, that likely won't happen because of the plot...).

Also, @Archone, again, Twilight isn't being abusive (and again, it's impressive she's gotten this far without getting pissed at her friends for the crap they were putting her through earlier). In addition, she isn't unjustified or just her problem, if Rainbow Dash's comment here about the lack of enthusiasm from the cursed players is any indication. Also, I don't really see how your attempts to work with the roleplay in your second comment would help (cause there's still not much they can do at this point given the curses - at least, not without the DMs letting the curses be lifted somehow - and they weren't exactly doing anything with the roleplay anyway beyond unnecessary fluff and repeated one-note characteristics, as pointed out -if a bit simplified - by ThatGuest, and they're not really conductive to personal growth IC cause they're about forcing the players to act counter to who the players are IC and OoC, as pointed out by GrayGriffin. And side note, your line with AJ is something she probably could guess from an OoC and IC perspective - not telling her anything she couldn't have known already).

@Modern-day Medicine Man, the problem with what you're saying about DiscordDM setting up a boss fight is that the challenge presented is nigh-impossible without the DMs cheating in favor of the players (personally explained it on this page in the comments: http://friendshipisdragons.thecomicseries.com/comics/1139 - but tl;Dr, Discord has too few limitations on his power and one way of being beaten - said way being taken by Discord and sabotaged through the curses. Therefore, the players can't really do anything except follow the whims of the DMs, and this whole session is essentially a farce, and as stated earlier, don't even really get to play their own characters and personality the way they originally did before the start of this arc in particular - because God Curses Them).
Troubleshooter 13th Nov 2018, 8:54 PM edit delete reply
SO, the running theory appears to be that Discord!DM is doing this to teach a lesson to Twilight about the importance of Role Playing. I'd like to ignore the ongoing debate over which memebers of the party are having fun incorrectly and instead ask: Why didn't Celestia!DM just talk to Twilight in private some time ago?
ThatGuest 13th Nov 2018, 9:04 PM edit delete reply
Page 1038. The DM clearly lays out that they want to bring Discord in because they're still sore about the party ruining their sloppy first session and they want someone to really torment the party. There's no 'lessons' no crazy 47 step reverse psycology plans. This is a damn hit called in on the party by the DM.
Archone 14th Nov 2018, 12:48 AM edit delete reply
...Now I'm thinking of Spoony and the Cyberzombie squad.

https://youtu.be/DzOvTavIn40?t=4726
obscurereader 14th Nov 2018, 1:16 AM edit delete reply
Huh. I remember this story. The Cyberzombie squad being called in on sociopathic players has absolutely no relevance to this group, who are full of good guy, non-sociopathic roleplayers (Twilight included, and Rainbow arguably Chaotic Neutral rather than Chaotic Evil, but limited to 4e alignments). Though, I love the part at 1:18:15 of that video where Spoony starts by talking about the DM needing to be fair and not antagonistic with the players, and how it's a pointless game if the DM is vindictive or unfair - that part seems especially relevant given the context of this scenario with Discord as a concept.
obscurereader 14th Nov 2018, 2:04 AM edit delete reply
Also, @Troubleshooter - I find the theory (I won't call it a "running theory" because I don't actually know who else thinks it's a plausible possibility apart from Archone, who I remember arguing for that idea a while back on this page: http://friendshipisdragons.thecomicseries.com/comics/1136/ - I wrote a nigh-identical counterpoint there to the idea in response), "that Discord!DM is doing this to teach a lesson to Twilight about the importance of Role Playing." to be... Baffling? Odd? Unlikely? Kind of ridiculous, to be honest - because as a theory, it requires too much OoC Omniscience to pull off without a hitch, and has an extremely large amount of failure points (first and foremost being that the players could easily misinterpret whatever lesson he's trying to teach them in a much more negative light - Fluttershy seems to be internalizing douchebaggy tendencies and biting psychoanalysis, for instance, rather than learning to better assert herself).

However, you bring up a good point to talk about in your question, "Why didn't Celestia!DM just talk to Twilight in private some time ago?". If this was an issue the dm had before (which hadn't really been shown up to the start of this arc from what I recall, when Twilight tried to do the failsafe spell and got shut down hard by the dm), as a general rule this is something you talk about OoC in a heart-to-heart chat. Like a human being with respect for one another, rather than whatever the nonsense of this arc even is. (Like, I don't think CelestiaDM's doing this maliciously by this point - they seems to be showing signs of regret, as shown on pg. 1140 with Spike's outburst about finding the book and CelestiaDM's OoC talk with Fluttershy immediately after she got cursed in the final panel of pg. 1102 - but this whole idea was extremely flawed from the start, and its execution was worse. Someone with the username WordyGuest made a great comment about the communication issues + issues with Discord as a Big Bad waaaaaay back on pg. 1117 here, that really explains it best I feel: http://friendshipisdragons.com/comics/1117)
Archone 14th Nov 2018, 4:34 PM edit delete reply
...I didn't mention the Cyberzombie squad because it was particularly relevant. I mentioned it because it was an amusing story that ThatGuest reminded me of, and linked to the exact spot where Spoony started theatrically acting out his reaction. "I hope you had fun! I had fun too... and you can't say you didn't have this coming...!"

I linked it because I thought people might get a laugh out of it.
GrayGriffin 14th Nov 2018, 2:32 AM edit delete reply
GrayGriffin
I admit, I am kind of sad we won't get to see Spike being the "new Rainbow Dash" in this comic now. Or heck, Twilight trying to give R.G. one of the Elements.
ThatGuest 14th Nov 2018, 5:19 AM edit delete reply
My bet is that soon RD is going to lose her temper because she's less patient than Twi, tell the group they suck or something which will make AJ mad and say something insulting. At which point RD will be like, "You know what, you can all kiss my ass." and leave before confronting Discord.
Digo Dragon 14th Nov 2018, 6:22 AM edit delete reply
Digo Dragon
This would be in character and a good way to get the "Spike is the new Dash" screen caps into the story. I can see it.
GrayGriffin 14th Nov 2018, 8:40 AM edit delete reply
GrayGriffin
True. Still, I now kind of wish someone would make an edit where she makes the Reference Guide the new Rainbow Dash.

Twilight: R.G...R.D...it must be a sign! What's more loyal and faithful than a book? They never leave you behind and are always there when you need them. And they never talk ba-um.
Guest 14th Nov 2018, 8:15 AM edit delete reply
Did you post that so you could advertise your dumb bootleg website?
Newbiespud 14th Nov 2018, 8:35 AM edit delete reply
Newbiespud
The spam's getting a little more involved lately.
GrayGriffin 14th Nov 2018, 8:37 AM edit delete reply
GrayGriffin
Does ComicFury not have a "report" option? That feels like an oversight.
Lionhero 14th Nov 2018, 3:15 PM edit delete reply
Twilight is not some munchkiny power gamer, she has gotten into this setting but she is less role-playing focused then most of the other players and that's ok. I don't think their are any badguys I think Discord GM Applejack, Pinkie, Fluttershy, and Rarity are heavy roleplayers and Twilight and Dash are more mechanics focused. Discord GM has tailored this for people who are Roleplay focused but because of that it's not fun for Twilight and Dash. They are getting angry everyone is to focused on role-playing and not trying to go through the quest, which is ruining their fun. Mean while their understandable anger is making the rest of the group ignore them as Powergamers and ignoring the fact this isn't fun for Twi and Dash. Everyone is being insesitve to everyone and everyone has reason to be upset. Honestly this is a scenario a giant fight then conversation is called for. Maybe a split of the group, but what's probably better is a secound group where Discord GM, Applejack, Rarity, Pinkie and Fluttershy can roleplay to their hearts content without having to worry about players who want to fight monsters and win treasure (which is a legimite way of playing)
Guest 14th Nov 2018, 5:40 PM edit delete reply
@Lionhero

The idea of splitting the group could work in theory, but there are a couple of problems with it. For one, the way the party is currently focused on defeating Discord, mainly Twilight, is through using the Elements which require all 6 of them. And now that they've found the elements, separation of the party doesn't really make much sense narrativewise.

There's also the fact that DiscordDM was never implied to become a permanent part of the table. While splitting off could work for the duration of DiscordDM's stay, it wouldn't apply after DiscordDM left the table. Having two tables then would be more impractical than anything else.
Fauxst 14th Nov 2018, 9:16 PM edit delete reply
I think they meant to imply that the rp-focused players could, in theory, begin a separate game with DiscorDM on a different schedule, possibly using Main GM's setting and system or something else entirely. They'd just be involved in more than one game, which makes sense to me, though naturally one wouldn't want to overcommit. It's just a matter of ensuring no one feels excluded from some kind of exclusive table, maybe an open invitation to join, so no one feels like they *have* to go if that's not the kind of game they want to play and they'd still have their normal big sessions with the whole group.

I'm sure this group enjoys gaming together (we've just been watching them get on each other's nerves for an hour or two in-universe for weeks out of universe), but if they had a focused outlet for their desired type of play without someone else feeling left out/dragged along or the Main GM struggling so hard to bring ALL those things into one game, they'd probably cooperate better and enjoy their time at this particular table more. It's wonderful to be able to share an activity with a bunch of friends, but if you all prefer to do that thing just a bit differently, you're bound to start feeling a little stifled or *always* forced to compromise (even if others are compromising just as much) if you don't really get an opportunity to play the way you want without being met with resistance, which can lead to the resentment we're seeing build. I could have missed it, of course, but I'm not aware of any of the players currently being involved in any other campaigns off-screen, so they're probably sinking all of their "tabletop time" into this game over the course of weeks.
obscurereader 14th Nov 2018, 11:50 PM edit delete reply
Little bit confused as to why they need to split up, honestly. They'd been working together greatly as a group up until this point (with everyone being able to be invested in each others' activities and all - the Gala storyline being a good example, I feel) - it's just that this particular campaign arc is designed specifically to encourage interparty conflict among the players (mostly since the most powerful weapon available to them is literally powered by the group's friendship)...